Wednesday, April 29, 2015
Is the Slaughter Justified?
In Book 22 Odysseus with the aid of his son and loyal servants slaughters all the suitors (despite the pleas of mercy from some of them), all the maids, and even the priest Leodes. Are these killings justified? Could he have punished them without killing them? Could he have driven them from the house. Are some of the killings justified, but others not? What about the people they spared (Phemius and Medon) -- what was Telemachus' reasoning? Was it wise or prudent to kill them all?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
I think that Odysseus' actions are not really justifiable. I can understand him wanting to kill these suitors, as they were treating his estate and wife with such disrespect. However, I do not think it was prudent of him to murder all of them. He did not try to negotiate with them at all, or attempt to diplomatically decide what he should do with them, he just went to murder them all. While the suitors definitely deserved some kind of punishment, Odysseus should have given them a chance to pay him for the damage done to him and Penelope. Furthermore, he was unfair to them as he did not reveal that he was Odysseus at first. When he pretended to be a beggar for so long, he gave the suitors no chance to reconcile with him upon knowing he was alive. He refused to even forgive the suitors when they asked forgiveness: Eurymachus attempted to stop the conflict and was still murdered. (Additionally, Odysseus probably shouldn't kill off all of the nobles in Ithaca) As for the maids, there was no reason for Odysseus to kill them. They were obligated as maids to serve the suitors, and were probably afraid for themselves if they did not obey them. And for the maids that had sex with the suitors, they should be allowed to do that with whomever they want. It really isn't betrayal for them to like the suitors, and Odysseus really can't condemn someone else for their promiscuity. Overall, I think that Odysseus' murders were excessive, and somewhat unjustified as he never tried any alternative besides murder.
ReplyDeleteI think that Odysseus killing all the suitors is not justified but it could also be justified in the same sense. It could be justified because the suitors wouldn’t leave if Odysseus came back and they would have attempted to kill him so he could have just been defending himself and his family from danger. But also the suitors never did anything to deserve death just imprisonment. Planning murder is breaking a law and the punishment is being imprisoned so Odysseus should have just locked them up instead of murdering them. The only justified killing was Antinous and Odysseus should have taken Eurymachus' proposal and taken money and other goods so they would leave and then he wouldn’t have all of the royal families of Ithaca hunting him down like they will be now. Everything could have been avoided if Odysseus didn’t feel so threatened by all the suitors because of how terrible they sounded from Telemachus’ description. If Antinous had not been there and wasn’t the ‘Leader’ of the suitors I think that everything would have happened a lot differently. This would be true because I feel that they would have been more polite with everything and wouldn’t attempt to kill Telemachus. Also when Odysseus came home they would just leave and go onto the next palace and do it all over again without trying to stand their ground like Antinous tried to make them do. This is shown when Antinous gets killed and Eurymachus tries to make a deal so the rest of them can leave but Odysseus doesn’t take advantage of that.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think that it was justified to kill all the people that Odysseus killed but it was justified to kill the suitors that actually caused harm to them. Some of the reasons that I think that it's not justified was because only a small amount of the people that Odysseus and his crew kill where actually harming them. I think that it was very unnecessary to kill all the people that had just little things to do with the suitors. It makes sense to kill the suitors because they have tried to kill Telemachus and Odysseus many times so it was ok to kill them to protect their families. The suitors plan kill him "this gallant voyage of his to find his father will find him wrecked at last!?(pg. 145). "This is when they plan to attack Telemachus on his journey to get back his father that has been gone for several years. Even through it was ok to kill the suitors that did harm it was not ok to kill the others that had nothing to do with any violence. There were 150 people that where killed by Odysseus, Telemachus and a couple others but only a small amount of them actually caused any harm. Some have not even seen the man before. It was ok to kill the suitors because they had planned several attacks on Odysseus and Telemachus but not to kill all the people that where somewhat related to the suitors. In the end Odysseus killings were justified in some but not in others.
ReplyDeleteI think that Odysseus's killing and slaughter in this chapter is justified to an extent. Odysseus has the right to be mad at the suitors for all they have done to his house and Penelope. For the entirety of time that Odysseus has been gone, they have violated his property and disgraced his house and his family. All of the suitors have tried to sleep with his wife, Penelope, and bribe her to be their wife. I see this as very disgraceful towards Odysseus and the house. The suitors put their own death upon themselves. They chose to be suitors, knowing the consequences that could arise through Odysseus's return. Odysseus states, "You dogs! You never imagined I'd return from Troy -- / so cocksure that you bled my house to death, / ravished my serving-women--wooed my wife / behind my back while I was still alive!" (22.36-39). To make matters worse, the majority of suitors wanted to kill Telemachus, the only heir to Odysseus. On the other hand, the other suitors that are against killing Telemachus don’t want to get on Penelope’s bad side, wanting to be the suitor that gets her hand in marriage. Although I believe that it was justified for Odysseus to kill all of the suitors for all the harm they have done to his house, Odysseus should have spared the maids. They had no power to refuse the suitors. Also, they had no obligation to not be whores of the suitors. Overall, I believe that Odysseus’s killing was justified when it came to the suitors, as they knew their consequences when it came to violating his property and disgracing his house, but not for the maids who had very little authority and say to what they did while Odysseus was gone.
ReplyDeleteI think it is justified for Odysseus to kill all the suitors, because the suitors acted in violent ways towards Odysseus and were threatening him by staying in his castle to marry Penelope. Also him and Telemachus killed the maids who had nothing to do with the battle, which was definitely unjust and unnecessary. There was no point in killing fifteen maids because they were not affiliated with the suitors or the battle. Telemachus says to the maids "No clean death for the likes of them, by god! Not from me-they showered abuse on my head, my mother's too! You sluts- the suitors' whores. " (453). Even though they could be considered "sluts" or "whores" they do not do anything to be killed making it unjust. The suitors plan to kill Telemachus for a long time and by eliminating the suitors Telemachus cannot be harmed. This situation could also be unjust because of the amount of people they were killing. Even though some of the suitors planned to kill Telemachus and Odysseus it was not everyone. All the suitors may have seemed bad to Telemachus, but some of them were forced to try to seek out and kill him by the other suitors, however it is nearly impossible to only kill the suitors who are truly bad because Telemachus and Odysseus do not know which ones are bad and which ones aren’t. I would say I am in the middle of whether it is justified or not. Even though Telemachus and Odysseus are defending themselves from the suitors who tried to kill Telemachus, the amount of people they are killing is extreme and unjust. They also killed fifteen maids who were completely out of the picture.
ReplyDeleteThe killing of the suitors with the exception of their leaders was not justified. I understand why Odysseus felt like he had to kill the suitors to avenge himself and win back the throne, but his personal reason was not justified in the big picture. Besides taking over the city in greed, while Odysseus was gone and planning the death of Telemachus, they had done nothing wrong. Odysseus enters the scene shooting Antinous in the neck, then announcing his return “You dogs! You never imagined I’d return from Troy” (22.37). Without even a slight warning, Odysseus slaughtered the leader and then killed them off one by one. After Odysseus slays Antinous, the suitors beg to be spared, promising to repay their debts, but Odysseus refuses to grant them mercy, even the ones who held onto his legs, weeping for forgiveness. They could have been put to good use in the castle or the village, but Odysseus killed even the most innocent and vulnerable ones because they were simply associated with the suitors. He then went on to kill the maids, who had been sleeping with the suitors, which was even more unjustified then the killing of the suitors. The maids, whether or not they wanted to sleep with the suitors, should not have been killed for something that they had no control over. There was no reason to kill the remaining suitors after Antinous, and Eurymachus were killed. Odysseus, unnecessarily, became a type of savage, slaying the men in horrific ways. For example, when he chopped off the head of the begging suitor who was holding onto Odysseus knees or when he began murdering the maids that had not shown any violence or disrespect towards him. There was no justification to Odysseus' brutal behavior.
ReplyDeleteThe slaughter of the suitors and the maids was both justified and not justified. On the one hand, I suppose that in these times the punishment for people wooing a married woman and eating all the property of another man would be death, dealt by the man himself. It seems that this is the accepted punishment system, especially since Odysseus is king and probably holds the power to make such decisions. In those times, it would probably be accepted by everyone else as it being none of their business; after all, when Agamemnon was killed by his wife and her lover, there was no sign of other people taking it upon themselves to deal justice. Orestes was the only one who took justice in the form of Aegisthus's death, because it related to him personally. It looks like each person has to deal justice as they see fit, if they or their family/friends are slighted in some way, and only if it is unjust would other people take offense and get justice for that. For example, Orestes did take his vengeance on Aegisthus, but he went a little too far in killing his mother. He was punished for that by other people, who did not think it was just to kill his mom. On the other hand, by today's standards it obviously is not justified to kill all these people. I guess we have a higher regard for human life, or at least we don't kill people as easily and get away with it by calling it 'justice'. By today's standards, the appropriate thing to do would be to ask for compensation, probably a heavy fine, and possibly firing everyone who helped the suitors. However, in those times the appropriate thing to do was to kill the suitors; it really depends on what moral code this discussion is based upon.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Odysseus killing the suitors was justified because Odysseus had gone through so much to get home. On top of that, he finds out that everything he has ever owned has been violated and taken away from him. Therefore, although the slaughter of them was brutal, the revenge against them was necessary. For all we know, there is an extremely high possibility that if Odysseus had not came around and killed them, they would have killed him, as Odysseus said "The were too strong, too many - they forced me to come and sing - I had no choice!" (22. 372-373).
ReplyDeleteAlthough the killing of the suitors was justified, I do not believe that the killing of the maids was justified at all. They never did anything half as bad as the suitors had done to him and it is understandable that Odysseus was angry that he had lost everything and he was angry, but he should not have killed the maids.
I believe that the suitors slaughter is mostly justified. I believe that he definitely had to kill someone, because they disrespected his hospitality, took his wealth, and courted his wife against her will. They were so out of line that someone had to be made an example: this does not mean that everyone had to be killed. He only needed to scare the suitors, not kill them; killing thirty or forty of the suitors would have been more than enough motivation for all the remaining suitors to never commit such an act again. This act would have been justified, but Odysseus took it way too far. He should not have locked the suitors in and killed them even after they begged for mercy. He gives them a chance to leave at the beginning: "Now life or death - fight me or flee if you hope to escape your bloody doom!" they were determined to fight at the beginning, in the middle he should have given them all a second chance for mercy. Even though he gave them the chance to flee once, I feel as though it wasn’t at the right time. They all may have been eager to fight at the beginning, but as the battle wore on, the suitors realized that they weren’t going to win. If he gave them a second chance to flee, he would have avoided a lot of bloodshed, which would help ameliorate any negative future consequences. Because of the way he dealt with the issue, this attack could have effects on him later as he is killing the heirs to thrones all around the known world.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteawes0ome
DeleteI think the slaughter of the suitors was partially justified. There were some suitors that tried to harm Telemachus but some had nothing to do with it and just wanted to marry Penelope. It was justified to kill some of the suitors but not all of them. The suitors were not really aware that Odysseus was dead so they had a right to try to marry Penelope. There were some suitors that tried to kill Telemachus which I think was justified for Odysseus to kill those suitors. But the suitors that just wanted to court Penelope and marry her should not have been killed. They had no idea that Odysseus would come back. After many years of someone being gone, one would assume that they were dead, so they had every right to try to marry Penelope. Also I think that he should have spared the servants that slept with some of the suitors. If there are powerful men and they want to sleep with you, you don’t really have much choice. Odysseus may be the servants’ master, but they probably also thought he was dead and did not have much choice. Also, Odysseus only gave the suitors a choice of leaving after he killed on of their leaders. So he never really gave them a chance at first. And of course the suitors would stay and fight. If someone killed the president, and then they told the other people in the white house to leave or else, they would probably not listen because they want to avenge and bring justice to their leader. So I believe that Odysseus had a right to kill the suitors that tried to harm Telemachus, but not the ones that just wanted to marry Penelope and his servants.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus was not justified in killing all of the maids and suitors. He had the right to be mad at them because of what they were doing to his house and family. But he had no good reason to kill all of these suitors. It would have been okay if he had punished them in some way but he had no right to kill 150 people. No matter how much the suitors wanted to marry Penelope, they were all begging for forgiveness and forgiveness. They knew what they had done and they didn’t want to die for it. There was a lot more Odysseus could have done to make the suitors feel ashamed other than killing them. He didn’t even give them a chance to explain or leave. Telemachus told Odysseus, "Stop, don’t cut him down! This one’s innocent" 22. 376. Odysseus didn’t care who was innocent he killed everyone. If he were to have killed a few people in self defense that would be a different question. But the way that Odysseus killed the suitors (hanging, decapitating, torturing etc.) was absolutely not self defense. I still think that Odysseus was not justified even after the debate. Even if I were to believe that it was justified, the manor that Odysseus killed these people in is unsettling. He made a mess his palace, even worse than the suitors were making. It is absolutely not moral to hang maids, decapitate nobles, or slaughter anyone in the way that he did. Especially publicly shooting an arrow through Antinous’ throat.
ReplyDeleteThe killing of all the suitors was not justified because the suitors, although they were bad people, they weren't bad enough to be killed by Odysseus. They don’t want to have the responsibility of a king; they just want to get into Penelope’s pants. Although some of the suitors did indeed try to kill some of Odysseus’s family, it wasn't justified to kill all the suitors, only the ones that attacked his family such as Antinous. Also, it’s not just that he killed them not justified but also the way he killed them. They didn't have to be killed, they had to be stopped because they were in fact doing evil and being unfair to their people. Odysseus belongs to that kingdom but everyone thought they were dead. So someone had to rule for him. Telemachus was supposed to rule but he never grew up in time so it was ok for them to rule while Odysseus was gone. Overall, the slaughter of all the suitors and maids was not justified because Odysseus killed every suitor even though many of them were innocent. Just because someone is mad at someone else, doesn't mean you have a good enough reason to kill all of his friends and him.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Odysseus was not justified to kill any one of the suitors or maids. Although some of the suitors might not have made the right choices, it most definitely did not warrant the death of every single one of them. The suitors might have truly been mistaken, believing that Odysseus was never going to return, giving them the chance to gain Penelope and his power. Odysseus pretended to be a beggar for so long, spying on the suitors, only to reveal himself as Odysseus and then immediately kill every one of them. If Odysseus came back in no disguise, this could have allowed the suitors to leave, and make up to Odysseus what they have done to his estates and family. However, Odysseus made them believe even more that he would never return, which gave the suitors no reason to not do what they did. Since Odysseus did return, the suitors might deserve some punishment from Odysseus because of what they did knowing Odysseus may still return, however there was no reason to kill anyone. Before killing the suitors Odysseus shouts, “You dogs! You never imagined I would return from Troy – so cocksure that you bled my house to death, ravished my serving-women-wooed my wife behind my back while I was still alive.” (22. 36-39). These words Odysseus shouts before killing every one of the suitors and maids makes it even more evident the slaughter was unjust. The maids he killed were ravished by the suitors, proving it was not their choice to be with the suitors. And all the suitors just believes Odysseus would never be back, making it okay for them to take over his life. Overall, Odysseus was extremely unjust for the slaughter, and should have shown no violence to the suitors or maids, maybe only a slight punishment.
ReplyDelete